It is mostly out of respect to Helen.

Thanks for explaining.

What you don't get? I don't really care.

Then why did you bother telling me?

That was unkind and unnecessary, I think. But whatever *shrugs*

So very much with you on the feminist stance - see my hillary post for a not very good attempt to talk about this stuff (and boy do we piss people off with it, no?). Of course you are spot on that subjugating women is always part of a totalitarian agenda - see the jews in stanford hill, see what happened in Iran under the Ayatollah, look at fundamentalist christians in the US (and btw look at the duggars - the girls do the cooking, the boys do the lawn, and once they swapped chores, just for a laugh - ahahahahaha).

But needed to correct a factual error. Eliz I didn't imprison her sister. Her sister was Queen mary before her, and died. Mary Queen of Scots was her cousin, and her claim to the throne came partially because ElizI was considered to be illegitimate due to her father's divorce from katherine of aragon (the queen mary's mother).

Charles,

Not sure I understand where Solomon comes from or his point. Maybe he can/will help me understand.

I was referring to the article Helen had linked to. If you click on the "some" hyperlink in the sentence "some have already beat us to it," you can read the article that sparked my comments. The initial point of my comment was intended to be humorous -- as if there's really a book all men read that tells us how to deal with women. Who would write the book? None of us understands them well enough. : )

The guy is a total arse. He would never behave like that if you were a man. Granted he might do something to seek to undermine a male colleague but not that. It amazes me when people or rather men still persist in thinking that there is not sexism in the workplace. There certainly is in my profession - the graduate intake has been 50% or over for the last 15 years at least and still the proportion of male to female partners in the prestige firms is no higher than 20% and often a lot less. It helps of course that they make being a partner totally incompatible with ever seeing your children awake.

Hmm Amber-it may be true that he was referred to as that on a few occasions, but he certainly was not on the local radio station like Hillary was referred to as a bitch, or some of the political blogs that I read. My point was that it is more widely accepted to call her a bitch then him the n-word.

And yes-I will type the "n-word". It is mostly out of respect to Helen. She used it when talking about the skins and the Cowboy, and has made it clear she does not like that word one bit. Since this is her blog, I try to follow her rules. What you don't get? I don't really care.

So what did YOU say to him after he made the vulnerable comment???

First of all, The Handmaid's Tale is a fabulous read. I didn't know until much later that it was set in Cambridge, MA...so another point to Boston.

In response to the political postings, I'm a student of political science and a lot of what I do centers around women in politics. Hillary's run for president was sort of the epic test of whether U.S. society is ready to Hail to Madam President, and I have to say, they failed that test miserably. The refrain of "it's not her gender, it's her politics" fails to take into account that everything she said or did was viewed through the conditioned lens of patriarchy - how we interpret her actions are dependent on how we view gender roles. Maggie's success in Britain is often cited as the counter to that, but she was dully cast in her campaign as a "man's woman" and "housewife," the latter brushed aside after she took power. Geraldine Ferraro was dead right when she said that had her name been Gerald, she'd never have been a nominee for VP (right before the out-of context quote about Obama's success hinging on race that was replayed to death). And whether the "n" word has been used to describe Obama, it has never been used or insinuated on network media, whereas many an anchor have been pointing to the big, neon "bitch" sign that they can't verbalize. Tina Fey's "bitch" comment may have been true and even empowering for those of us who consider ourselves proud of being one, but the fact that it could be said on air was the deciding factor.

I highly recommend Susan Jane Gilman's "Kiss My Tiara" for any feminist or feminist-sympathizer - my favorite chapter is her take on why in the world women actually apologize to inanimate objects when they bump into them.

Hope you gave the dickwad on the phone what-for.

Can you imagine the outcry (and rightfully so) if Barack was referred to as a 'n*igger'?

Um...actually I have read that being said about Obama many times and worse, unfortunately. I've also read that when he becomes President (yes, I am that optimistic! Heh) he plans to enslave all white people, that he's Muslim and our country will become a Muslim country and slaves to the MidEast, all kinds of crazy BS.

People will say anything about anyone given enough ignorance and hatred.

Oh and regarding the use of asterisks in certain words; I've never quite understood that. I mean, I know it is considered polite but I don't understand why. We all know the words are really nigger and bitch, right? :) It ain't foolin' anybody, hehehe... :) It's the intent that makes them "bad" or not.

I saw a professor speak about this on some TV show years ago (yes, he happened to be black) and he said something about how silly it is when people say "n-word", he said it drives him crazy because whether or not you say n-word or n*igger or you say "that word for black people that is very rude" it's all the same meaning. The word 'nigger' immediately pops into our heads no matter what. So why try to cover it up? He didn't get it and I don't either.

As for turkey pot pie, I love it. But only the frozen ones. That way I do not have to feel persecuted and Dan does not have to feel emasculated. ;-)

Um, so what did you say?

Hey Dave, no need to apologize. I think you are a good guy who has every right to his opinion. And you are right that the sexes need to respect each other and not blame.

It is good to hear the from others and what they experience and feel about issues-it helps broadens one horizons, and if we are lucky we even learn a little something. I did not mean to personally attack you, or to presume to believe you were placing blame on women-I too may post in a bit of haste.;) Good, positive debate helps everyone see from a different angle-and there is nothing wrong with that.

Ouch. I was afraid it was a matter of time before I stepped in it big time. Looks like today is the day.

Let me get something straight. I have a habit of speaking from the heart, what’s on my mind, and sometimes I type faster than I think. And I DID NOT in any way, shape, or form mean to infer that women were to blame for men’s unhappiness. All I tried to do was state that, from my position in life, I have seen numerous cases where the man was put on the defensive by the woman, as opposed to the other way around, and it was just as wrong. At the same time, I made no attempt to excuse the boorish, crass behavior of too many males out there who rightly deserve their label as the assholes they are. I just wanted to make the point that both sexes deserve respect, rather than blaming each other for their problems. And apparently we have a long way to go before the battle between the sexes is ever close to being settled amicably, as Helen's unfortunate encounter demonstrated. I also confessed to being ignorant of how society treats women over in the UK as opposed to the US. Unfortunately it looks like I rushed my post before really thinking about what I wrote, or even if I should have posted it here at all, and ended up offending several people. So rather than continue along in this vein and dig my hole deeper, I’ll just stop while I'm behind and apologize for running my mouth. Once again I'm sorry Helen, for causing this stink.

"TURKEY POT PIE" Breakfast club. Nice.
And the rant? Awesome.

OH MY GOD. I just realized I still typed the "i" even after I put in the "*" in a certain awful word.

I am so embarrassed, as that is one of many words that is repulsive to me.

And all the woman that should be women. Oy. I should make use of the preview. Yikes.

I have to respectfully disagree with you Dave. It is true in some cases that men are often "blamed" or "poked fun of" in society (especially white men), it is far from true the pendulum has swung too far to the other side. Feminism now is almost a term most women are feared to be labeled, because it has to come to mean some sort of butch-non-shaving-tree-hugging-granola-crunching-angry-woman; some may be just that, but I think to most woman feminism has a very different meaning.

When I read a comment like yours it seems to me woman are once AGAIN being blamed for causing men unhappiness. I am sure for every guy you know who may have been victim of a false accusation of sexual harassment, you could probably find 10 women who have been sexually harassed at work and nothing has been done to stop it (and just for the record, women who do falsely accuse someone of something like that are not cool). Let's face it-I would not have voted for Hillary because I don't agree with her political stance, but it was common fodder for the blogs and late-night shows to talk about how "ugly" she is or how unfeminine she seems. Some talking heads said she should dress "softer" or wear more make-up. Yet if she was a real looker and became another Jackie-O, nobody would have taken her seriously and then the talk would have been about how she obviously cares more about looking good then the issues. She couldn't win either way.

And don't even start on how many times I have heard/read someone referring to her as a 'bitch'. Can you imagine the outcry (and rightfully so) if Barack was referred to as a 'n*igger'? Yes, all the candidates get mocked and poked fun at, but even someone like me who doesn't care for Hillary winced at how vicious and personal the attacks were on her.

How about when a male teacher has an affair with a female teen student? He's a pedophile, and society is disgusted with him. A female teacher with her teen male student? The boy is lucky his teacher is so 'hot' and hey, guys say, if she was my teacher I would want to bang her too. She still is a pedophile in the eyes of the law, but certainly she doesn't seem to be to society. Is it because of her being a woman that she can't be threatening? Is the attitude that women can't be sexual predators? It seems to me the thinking is how can screwing a teen guy be a crime-she's a chick. Right?

Wrong.

I could go on and on. I love men-hell, I even married one. But we are far from accepting women as equals-look at what happened when Helen talked about being a "working mom". Of course women are certainly not the only ones feeling a lot of trouble in getting ahead in society or even being taken seriously at the work place. It just seems as a society we have a lot more tolerance for raking women over the coals. I like the whole movement of women knitting and sewing and crafting as general. While it is true that when men do these things it is 'art' and when women do it it is a 'hobby', it is something of a revolution for women. The attitude is not to turn our backs on our grandmothers and mothers and say "you sewed because you had to-I sew because I chose to." Instead, it is to celebrate what they did, appreciate all their work and recognize how important they were to the family, and take delight in the fact that in a day when things are mass produced and not personal, those skills are still alive and well and being shared by a whole new generation of men and women. When I sew and knit I don't think of it as "woman's work" or "my grandma's craft" (which people have called it when talking to me); it is a skill I am glad to have, and while I am glad I don't need to knit to keep my family warm, I am damn proud I could if I needed to. I am not ashamed my grandma was a SAHM, or that I am either. A woman having a family and a career? Hell yeah. I think one of the first steps is for women to not battle each other. But I could go on again how there are some men out there trying to make sure that doesn't happen.

I'll stop now. Your are dead right about why he said it to you. Men like that get off on trying to pull the rug out from under women. I've been there many times. I do worry for my daughter-things just seem to be going downhill and I don't know what lies ahead for her. I worry just as much for my son-the world just seems so fucked up.

Sigh.

Sorry I have to repond to Diamond Dave's post. While I con follow his post I feel from direct day to day observation his views do not hold up to even the casual observer.

Have been in the medical field for closeo nto 40 years from time when female physicians were rare to very common. Have observed firsth and innumerable instanses of double standards. A male physican goes on rampage and is praised for lookng out for his patients. A woman complains and is reviled for beng disruptive. Could go on for hours. How close have me observations been: was married to female physican for 12 years. Present practice associate is female. I feel qualified to comment.

Dave, I fear you are incorrect.

Superb post. Great message. Two other great books are Sherri Tepper's "Womans Gate" and Barbara Kingsolver's "Poisonwood Bible."

Not sure I understand where Soloman comes from or his point. Maybe he can/will help me understnad.

No doubt women are treated differently in work place. Not fair or right. Society really does not support women- IMHO.

My thought for an appropriate response to people like your co-worker: I'm sorry I think you have confused me with someone who givesa shit about you or what you think.

Keep up the good work.

Anohter thought and confusion: what does Easy mean when he says: It's so nice he lets you do this. I hope comment is in jest.

Interesting post, Helen. My question is this: do the men in the UK tend to display more chauvinism over there than here in the States? Because sometimes here I feel like it is the men, not the women under siege.

Before I continue, and to collect my thoughts carefully so I’m not misunderstood here, I’ll say that without a doubt that guy should have had his balls ripped off and stuffed down his fucking throat. Nobody worthy of any respect should ever be talked down to like that, male or female. And that would have never gone over here at all. I admire your self-restraint in not doing something to him anti-social enough to cost you your job.

But in this part of the world it seems like the man is the one constantly ridiculed, blamed for every problem, and screwed over by the law and society. Women have the upper hand, and are constantly wrestling men to the mat. I’m all for women working as equals in the workplace and in the home. And I think the men should do all they can to support it. But the pendulum of feminism has swung so far that men are by default considered assholes until proven otherwise. And I'll be the first to say that the male ranks are full enough of genuine assholes that drag down the rest of us. But I’ve known too many men who have gotten screwed over in the courts over their kids, their income, been falsely accused of horrible crimes, lost jobs due to flimsy claims of sexual harassment, etc. And society seems to take the attitude that men deserve all they get. I’m all for respecting women, but not at the cost of not being able to earn their respect.

I don’t want to take up too much space here with what’s turning into a rant. And I don’t want to offend you with anything I’m saying. If you think I’ve gone too far, feel free to drop me an email and we’ll talk. I have a great deal of respect for you and the fact that so far you’ve been very successful as a professional, as a mother, and at putting your life back together. And I’ll concede that the sexism situation may well be very different over there than it is over here.

And feel free to tell your “colleague” that Dave thinks he’s an asshole. I may even post my jackass picture in his honor.

One Eve-like "let's blame it all on WOMEN" model I've heard is the case of La Malinche/Malintzin, who is seen in turns as the mother of the Mexican people, and traitor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Malinche

Mary Queen of Scots was Elizabeth's cousin, not her sister. Mary Tudor, Elizabeth's sister, was dead by the time Elizabeth gained the throne, otherwise Elizabeth wouldn't be Quuen and wouldn't have the power to imprison anyone.

Oh crap...you're probably gonna hate my guts, but here goes:

You shouldn't have told him about your vulnerability in the first place by giving out bits of background that gave him that impression; that was your error. (eek! don't hate me)

Yeah, he patronized you but he sounds like he tries to patronize EVERYBODY, regardless of gender or anything else. I don't think it matters a whit that are you female. That's the way he plays; I've been around people like that too. The last time a guy did that to me in a business situation, (in essence, he hadn't used the word "vulnerable" but something similar) I said he was right, I am vulnerable in certain ways but I was also very good at what I do so he'd better watch it around me. I shocked him, actually, he was not expecting that, I think...hehehe...

He changed towards me after that, he gave me more respect. I think he had expected a completely different reaction and I had surprised him.

Because truth, I AM vulnerable. So are you. So is everyone here who has commented, so are all humans in some way. Best of all, so is he, although in ways you might not realize. We're all vulnerable, Helen. He's doing a mind-fuck with you about it and...it worked enough to piss you off which is what he probably wanted.

You know who *isn't* vulnerable?

Nobody.

Hopefully one day he will expose his vulnerability and you will be there to make a similar comment to him and OH! Those are the moments to cherish in life, oh yes. :)

OH and btw, I say all this now all calm and whatnot but if I had been you, I would have been LIVID as well. Good rant, I enjoyed it. :)

What an ass. Really and seriously. Am chomping at the bit to hear what you said, if you said anything at all. Now, I'm good and pissed off. WHAT AN ASS. Also, Easy's damn funny.

How your head didn't pop off is beyond me. But I'm known for my hairtrigger. . . which, over the course of eons, I've learned to control. Hence, the awesome amount of wine-drinking I can accomplish.

You're amazing.

I'm sitting here drooling to hear you made corporate mincemeat of that guy. I'd expect no less. Granted, you're the better person to walk away, but - I've never been the better person, ergo I'd have ripped him a new one.

"No more so than you, I would say," was my standard grownup version to that kind of BS (much more mature than "I'm rubber and you're glue!")

God, I LOVE your history rewrites.

Ok, the guy is probably a Dick, and granted he probably wouldn’t tell a male friend that he thought he was vulnerable, but I’d bet he would say something equally stupid to imply weakness on the ‘other’ guys part. It’s all part of his psychological game – he’s trying to push you off the project, he needs to represent a stronger hand. Along with representing the stronger hand, he wants to put you in distress – get under your skin – so it disrupts your decision making.

He might be a chauvinistic prick, but it’s not about man-v-woman – it’s a Machiavellian power thing and he’s playing the game. Rather well too because he found the right button to push with you.

So, should you stand and fight, or do you surrender? What are the long term implications of letting him win this round? If it’s nothing, then let it be. If you’re gonna fight, (I know you have the skilz) – are you prepared to invest the time and energy? Either way, you’ve learned something about how he plays the game so next time you’re in a hand together you know how to play him.

(Sorry for all the poker references, I just find it to be a perfect analogy for so many interpersonal and business related things.)

*why yes, I am vulnerable, but I've developed an uncanny knack for channelling that vulnerability into a strength, as in, I can rip off your "rib" with one hand and shove it down your own throat with the other. Don't test me boy!*

Now, that is what I would have told him. I don't do power struggles, but I do win them if forced into a corner. I'm a crazy bitch and I like it. It is the Asian in me. Subservient when I need to be or when it suits me, mean as hell the rest of the time. *snicker* On a serious note though, I love a challenge, and if the challenge is disabusing someone of the notion that they are better than me, all the better. Do you want I should go ninja on him? :-)

I think you need to calm down a bit little lady. Are you this upset because you're on your period?

Heh.

I would so have ripped his balls off and serve them as a side dish to some turkey pot pie.

Lily

Chapter 1 of Understanding Women is entitled "All Women Are Vulnerable." I could tell you the other chapters, but my man friends would kill me.

In the article it said, "Devotees promise to transform themselves from nagging, controlling women into loving, caring, ultra-obedient housewives." Aside from "ultra-obedient" I would think most people, men and women, would agree with that. I mean, really, who wants to nag or be nagged. What they fail to mention is that men (at least from a Christian perspective) have to do their part. If you don't want your wife to nag you about the trash, take it out without her asking 10 times. Don't want her to nag about dirty socks on the floor? Put them in the hamper!!

It also said women were "learning to change themselves, not their men." The truth is: you CAN'T change someone else. You can only change yourself and hope your spouse likes what they see enough to change with you.

While I prefer the traditional model, I don't think women who choose to work should be treated differently than men in the workplace. If you wouldn't tell Bob you think he's vulnerable, you shouldn't tell Helen you think she's vulnerable. It's that simple.

Amen. As always, you rock. Also, that's one of my favorite books. I also like her early poetry.

As a feminist, I always worry that I just sound paranoid when I think of this stuff, but even though we have "equality," we're still not the same and we're not viewed the same way. I'm 21, petite and look young, and you would not believe (or maybe you would!) the amount of ridiculous talking-downs I get. Apparently my education and ambitions are just "cute."

Great post. Between all of the cooking, cleaning, and servicing Angus I'm amazed you have the time. It's so nice he lets you do this.

I got to the "vulnerable" line and I instantly knew why he'd said that. I'm glad that you knew too but what I want to know is what possessed him? Is there a manual somewhere on how to undermine the competition with a chapter on knocking back women? (knocking up women, totally different book btw) How can someone be so verminous as to come out with this stuff?

Excellent post as always Helen.

Handmaid Tale is my second favorite Atwood (she's Canadian eh dontcha know) book (Oryx and Crake is the first). I had such a difficult time reading it without being pissed off and wondering just how close we were to this scenario.

It is amazing how much I agree with you on this subject. I know so many men that say they view women as equals, but when it comes down to it, they honestly do think they are better. Kinda sucks. (Also - The Handmaid's Tale = one of my favorite pieces of literature)

please please, tell us, you left out what you did to the chap - the god wannabe?

You are freaking hilarious! Honestly, I almost let out a little wee reading this! Pure genius. (runs off to make turkey pot pie for husband)